INTERVIEW: Thomas Zupko
– Thomas Zupko Movies

Sept. 2001

It’s
time to do a little follow up with Mr. Thomas Zupko,
director of controversial porn for Extreme Associates.

Sit down
Rog and feel free to just move anything that’s in
your way. It’s basically all shit anyway.

If I
came into a neat office at a porn company, I think I would get scared.

That is
a real shark on my desk though.

For
those who can’t see, it is a real shark, but it’s in a jar, not just lying on Zupko’s desk. Last time we covered your career pretty well,
so let’s start where we left off with that one. At that time, “In the Days of
Whore” had just come out. Right after that came “Ass
Clowns” right?

Yes, and
I’m still waiting for your review of that one.

Waiting?

Yeah, in
the “Ass Clowns 2” review, you said that you needed to go back and give Ass
Clowns the full treatment. You said you saw the beginning of it and had to put
it aside until you were ready. I thought that was funny, but I’m still waiting.

What we
need to do with your movies is just cut out the really good parts of very movie
and we’ll have a great two hour movie.

That was
the first thing I did after Days of Whore. At that time, I was doing a big
feature, then a smaller movie. It was a much simpler movie, people either loved
it or they hated it. In High Society, they listed their top ten movies and I
had two on that list, which they said had never happened before. They had Days
of Whore at 9 and Ass Clowns at 2. I couldn’t believe that. To me, there is no
way Ass Clowns is a better movie than Days of Whore, but they loved it.

AVN
nominated Days of Whore for quite a few awards last year.

It
actually won two awards at that show; it won something at XRCO and was video of
the year in Adam Film World.

What did
it lose to at the AVN Awards?

Dark Angels.

Dark
Angels sucked.

I’m not
trying to say I’m anything special because I’m not, but I don’t think you can
compare the two movies and say that Dark Angels is a better movie.

With all
the shit that has gone since the last award show, are you expecting to get any
nominations this year?

No
chance. We are persona non gratta at AVN. We get no
reviews, no press and our name is not even in their list of companies in the
back.

How has
that affected you guys?

This is
for everyone who worships at the alter of Paul Fishbein; our sales have actually gone up since we stopped
spending an obscene amount of money in their magazine.

How is
that possible? You don’t show up on the official sales charts.

I’ll say
this for the record; Paul Fishbein prides himself on
the idea that AVN is the official trade magazine where everything is accurate.
He swears that his charts are accurate. If that’s the case, then how do we go
from top five on their charts to not even showing up? How is it possible when
our sales are better? Imagine if you were Sports Illustrated and you had a
problem with Art Modell, the owner of the Baltimore
Ravens. In every issue, you erase all mention of the Ravens and even say that
they didn’t win the Super Bowl. How can an objective trade magazine say that
Extreme doesn’t exist? It’s fucking crazy. It all comes back to how corrupt AVN
is, how much you grease the hands of Paul Fishbein
and we just stopped playing that game.

Where is
the ad money going now?

We’re
advertising in Hustler and that is doing well. We started with some generic
ads, but we’re ramping up to the kind of full scale campaigns we used to run in
AVN. We’re getting a circulation of three million and it’s doing well.

So if
people want to see reviews of Extreme movies, they need to hit web sites that
cater to actual porn fans.

You
know, I want to say this again, in all honesty the two review outlets I always
look to are Hustler magazine and Rog Reviews. I’m not
just saying that because you’re here. I think those are the most objective
reviews and the most entertaining as well. The movies are looked at and judged
on their merits and I appreciate that. We all love working with you
Rog and we’re going to do all we can to get you movies, PR
and whatever you need.

(He
laughs) Of course, lots of girls. It’s not a bribe if the review is already
written.

That’s
true.

If it’s
done after, then it’s a reward, not a bribe. Besides, I know you. You wouldn’t
move a 2 to an 8 just because of a girl. Maybe move a 7 to an 8, but you have
standards.

After
Ass Clowns you did “The Abyss” which I saw and really liked.

I did
get slammed across the board for the long subtitles at the beginning, which you
mentioned in your review.

You had
this really long block of text over a visually interesting montage. It was
impossible to watch and read at the same time. The Gauge scene in that movie is
probably the best sex scene you’ve ever shot and the story was interesting.

Thank
you.

Would
that have been eligible this year?

No, that
one was released in October of last year, so it was part of last year’s batch.

Not that
it would matter this year anyway.

Of course not.There was actually a memo sent to every employee at
AVN that we are not to be mentioned.

Do we
have a copy of that memo?

No we
don’t. However, I did get a call from a performer, I don’t want to mention any
names, but word is that performers who work for are doing so at great risk to
their future nominations. I think that’s unbelievable.

They
control the awards; I guess they have the power.

We want
to get some major reviewers and do our own awards. The only thing that makes
the AVN Awards worth anything is the glitz. Everyone in this business is
looking to be a superstar, so we just have to have that kind of a show. We’re
working on a show for 2003 that will bring credibility and glitz to a porn
awards show. We’re going to have the major magazines, the glitz and the
objectivity that is lacking now. Best of all, no one affiliated with Extreme
will have a vote, so it will be honest. You, of course, will be one of the
objective reviewers chosen to vote.

Back to your movies. You had said that you felt Days of
Whore was better than Ass Clowns, why do you say that?

I just
think Days of Whore is a better movie, there is more there. I found it funny
that High Society picked it the other way around.

Ass
Clowns is a better jerk off tape. Days of Whore is
strong, it’s well shot, the dialog and the ideas are great, but Ass Clowns is just
easier to digest.

I guess
it’s just hard to compare the two.

The
Abyss was based on a Dostoyevsky novel, correct?

It was
based on “House of the Dead.”

I have
to bring this up, because of you, I finally read “Brothers Karamazov.”

Did you
like it?

Remember
how I said you owed me 2 hours of my life from Anal Ball? Add six months to it
for that recommendation.

But the
Grand Inquisitor passage is brilliant.

I can’t
argue that, but that was twenty pages out of seven hundred.

I’m
expanding your mind Rog.

Then
came Ass Clowns 2, which wasn’t the one with Taylor St. Claire was it?

No,
Taylor was in Ass Clowns 1. She had two scenes in that one. It’s funny, after
the worked with Luciano for the first time in that
movie. She came up to me afterwards and said she something important to talk to
me about so I wasn’t sure what to expect. Taylor whispered to me, “I only want
to work with Luciano from now on.” She was like a
little schoolgirl with a crush.

So what
were the highlights of Ass Clowns 2?

That’s
the one with Santa and the Reindeer, the Rob and Tommy scene and the hillbilly
scene, with Surewood.

I don’t
know, Brian Surewood as a
hillbilly is a little too close to home.

It was
like typecasting with Brian and Mr. Pete. I believe that when it comes to
dialog you have to get to know the actors. I know Brian can play a hillbilly
because it’s not a reach. If I wanted him to play Beethoven, then we would have
a problem, but an inbred retard is not even a stretch. Then Mr. Pete is an inbred,
retarded hillbilly so it was perfect. (He has to stop laughing for a moment.)
Seriously, those guys are my best friends and I love them both.

Which of
the two Ass Clown movies did you like better?

Ass
Clowns 1 was darker with the worms and all. Ass Clowns 2 was really silly, with
drunken Santa. I prefer darker movies.

Then
came “Whore’s Life” and you said that Lizzy Borden
had to take over at the last minute on that one?

Taylor
was supposed to be the star in that one, but we had a little personal falling
out. I gave Lizzy 11 pages of dialog and she did what
she could with it in the short time she had. The performances could have
better, but Whore’s Life is what it is.

Would
you say that is your least favorite?

I would
say it’s my least favorite yeah.

Least
favorite of the Extreme movies or overall? There was that Pool Party
movie.

That was
pretty awful. We don’t even count the pre-Extreme stuff, so Whore’s Life is my
least favorite.

Shades of Hades wasVery interesting movie, brilliant
actually.

Thank
you.

You said
that was a more personal story than you usually do.

It was
more or less based on my life and I put everything into that one. I seriously
considered committing suicide after that movie. It was such a powerful
experience for me that I wondered where I could go from there. It took a long
time to recover. I took a couple of weeks off and came back cleansed.

I know I
felt like committing suicide after watching “Anal Ball.”

(He
laughs) Fuck you Rog.

We know
that AVN won’t be nominating Shades of Hades, but you have to feel good about
that movie in terms of an award-caliber product.

A lot of
people who view porn on a different level have liked that movie. Mark Starr
said that it could possibly be the greatest porn ever made. He’s a literate guy
like you are and he appreciates art. I really think
that some of the writers at AVN would have loved it.

It’s
certainly the kind of movie that usually wins a lot of awards.

I’m
proud of it.

That
brings us to the latest and currently most controversial movie in your catalog.
Let’s give the readers a bit of background. During the Seymore
Butts obscenity trial, you took exception to some things that Assistant DA
Deborah Sanchez said about Extreme and how your time was coming.

Yeah, I
read those comments and it struck me as blatant hypocrisy. When you look at all
the shit that’s going on, to focus on porn seems absurd to me. I was just about
to shoot The Attic when I read that, and I changed it all around to make a
First Amendment statement.

So you
weren’t out to trash America?

If
anything, it’s a tribute to America. That we have the right to do something
like this is the beauty of our country. After what happened last week in New
York and Washington, I think that people are going to see it differently and
perhaps not understand what I was trying to say.

It was shot before the World Trade Center bombing and there
is some symbolism in the movie that might be seen in a new context that is more
disturbing.

That’s right. It’s going to be disturbing in a different way
than I intended when we made the movie a few months ago. My heart goes out to
the families of the victims. If anything, this has galvanized us as Americans
and it supercedes all other problems.

Do you think people will be able to see through their
emotions and get the point you are trying to make?

I hope so. I was trying to point out some hypocrisy in
America, but it’s still porno. People are going to
have to look at it and realize what I was trying to say.

Which is?

That attacking us, attacking porno, given what American has
done to other races and peoples is hypocrisy. It was my intention to bring that
out.

The events of September 11^th are going to change
how people see this.

I’m sure that it will.

It’s in stores now. Have you heard from any store owners who
want to send it back?

Not yet, but it only takes one person to be offended by
something to get something started. If someone has a problem, then that’s fine.

What do you hope people will get from this movie?

I hope people will look at it in the context of when it was
made and not now. There are a lot of things that will offend
people now and that was never my intention. If I had that movie in
production right now, I wouldn’t shoot it the same way. We are all Americans
and I don’t want to detract from that. The only thing that would still like to
say about the Government is that this tragedy sort of proves my point.
Something like this, that took years to plan and
involved hundreds of people can happen. They can kill thousands of people and
we didn’t have a clue. On the other hand, we can spend time and resources being
worried about four fingers going into a pussy somewhere in the Valley.
Hopefully, this will put pornography and how detrimental it may or may not be,
into proper perspective. Pornography is part of the American tapestry and we
have to deal with that.

You’re getting up on that soapbox Zupko.

Since you bring that up, let me point this out. Religious
zealotry is responsible for all of the evils of society going back thousands of
years. What we have in this country is a partial separation. We say we have
separation of church and state, but most of our laws are based on the
Judeo-Christian morals. Once we truly separate and just realize that we are
humans, we are here and we die, then we will have a much better society. When
these guys are shouting for Allah, they are not different than religious
zealots in this country shouting down pornography or abortion. It’s not exactly
the same, but it’s the same ball park. We need to grow up and make religion
private. Don’t let it effect our lives. It’s all a fairy tale and we’re very
close to what they did. Look at Jerry Fawell, or our
Attorney General John Ashcroft who allegedly was anointed with hot oils and his
father speaking in tongues on the Senate floor. He said that dancing was
sinful. That’s fucking scary and it’s a short step away from what they did at
the Trade Center. Let’s really separate church from state.

This is your time to rant, but let me interject. On the
other hand, when a religious bigot like Fawell says
what he said this week, most people, Christians included, say ‘shut up, you’re
an idiot.’ In the countries you’re talking about, when someone says that gays
are at fault, the people just round them all up and execute them. There is a
big difference.

I agree, but we have to keep it in mind and remember not to
go down that path. What matters is human beings working together day to day and
not worry about what consenting adults do.

After The Attic, which was another dark movie, you did
something a little different.

I did
The Adventures of Mammary Man and Jugg Woman which is
something different. After Shades, I was really depressed and I came up with
this crazy idea. I just saw Brian Surewood with a big
set of tits and started cracking up. I was really into comic books growing up,
so I pitched it to Rob. He loved it and I forgot about it. When I came back
from my vacation, Rob had already run an ad for it. I did it, it is a light
hearted romp based on the old Adam West Batman series.

Do you
think the hard-core Zupko fans are going to be disappointed?

Some
might, but if they don’t like Mammary Man, then chances are they didn’t like
Shades of Hades either. The Attic is more brutal, but this is something for a
new audience. I don’t know if I want to be into cable at all, but this opens up
that market for me.

There
are certainly a lot of comic book fans who don’t get much of that in porn.

Well,
this is potentially a ten part series if I have the strength to do it.

After
that, you’re doing a movie called The Circus. What’s that about?

It’s
about a girl, Veronica Caine, whose car breaks down.
She’s wandering and sees these bright lights. There is this picture of a circus
and all these freaks. All of a sudden Bret Rockman
appears. He takes her through a whole maze of sexual freaks. We’ve rented a
whole amusement park for this one and will have six freaks on a Ferris wheel.
Bret takes her through all these sexual sideshows. One is the perfect woman,
the headless whore. She doesn’t bitch, she doesn’t complain. They throw her
head into the audience, freakish shit like that. She becomes more and more
aware of her sexuality and is on stage in the final scene. She fucks a four
hundred and fifty pound man, an eighty five year old man and a dwarf fucking
her.

You got
Ron Jeremy, Randy West and Ed Powers?

(He
laughs) That’s fucking funny. I should have done that actually. The next thing
you know, another girl is on the highway and sees the pictures. Naturally,
Veronica is now part of the picture. It’s sort of like that last shot in the
Shining.

That
sounds like a return to what people expect from you.

Yeah,
it’s going to be out there.

The last
thing we want to talk about is the new guy at Extreme. It’s not public yes, but
it will be by the time I finish this. There is a new guy on the team, right?

Yes and
his name is Mr. Vegas, the artist formerly known as Kid Vegas. Before anyone
starts moaning and thinking that Extreme has reached a new low, let me say
this. Vegas has grown up a lot, hence the new name and he’s got some really
good idea. He just needs to be reined in. The stuff he has done in the past,
let’s face it, has sucked. If we take him under our
wing and give him the kind of freedom he needs, he is going to do great things.
I was talking with him and he said that before, he would want some input on his
cuts, but they wouldn’t let him. I think they were intentionally making them
worse than they were. Not to say his movies weren’t bad already, but they
wanted to make them worse.

If
you’re going to make bad porno, why not make the worst porno ever.

Exactly. We want to actually help bring him along. I think with the
right direction, he could do some very good movies.

You and
Rob and the Extreme team can be a dysfunctional foster family for the Kid.

There
you go.

All
right, thank you very much. Anything you want to add?

Of
course there is. I want to say thank you again to Rob Black and Tom Byron for
what they have done. They don’t censor me or dilute my vision and for that I
thank them. I’m not always the easiest person to get along with so I owe them a
debt of gratitude.

As always, it’s
been a pleasure. Thanks.

Thanks Rog.